"Tony sometimes talks as if he is the only just man. ... He's a very persuasive speaker. You think he believes every word of it and I think he does, actually. That's why he comes across. There's no fake in it. But my impression is that his family--two or three of them--don't agree with him. They don't say it because they don't want to hurt him. In the first cabinet where I was--who you sit next to is quite important--you see how the other chap operates. Of course, Tony had been in many cabinets ... Tony was on one side and Tony Crosland on the other. I got more fun out of it that way, I must say. Tony [Benn] was keeping his diary ... Crosland was an interesting chap. Quite a lot of arguments with Tony Crosland ... I had an argument with him on one occasion about Hazlitt because despite the fact I was in the bloody cabinet, I saw that it was Hazlitt's two hundredth anniversary. They [the Times] asked me to do an article and I did it--this was before Murdoch had taken over. The next week [during a cabinet meeting] Tony Crosland says, "Fancy a chap who has time to write articles when he's in the cabinet. We're not like that. We have to get on with the bloody work." I said, "Well, it so happens I've been waiting a long time to write that article. That's my excuse." But I got back on him because he produced a book called Socialism Now. Three or four weeks later [in cabinet] I said, "Socialism Now--that's a wonderful title. We are trying to work on a decent incomes policy and here I read a book by you called Socialism Now. I've looked through it ten times. There's no chapter on incomes policy."